WS0766

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  • ROINN COSANTA. BUREAU. OF MILITARY HISTORY, 1913-21. STATEMENT BY WITNESS DOCUMENT NO. W.S. 766 Witness Dr. Patrick McCartan, Karnak, The Burnaby, Greystones, Co. Wicklow. Identity. Member of Supreme Council of I.R.B.; O/C. Tyrone Volunteers, 1916; Envoy of Dail Eireann to U.S.A. and Rudsia. Subject. (a) National events, 1900-1917; (b) Clan na Gael, U.S.A. 1901 - ; (C) I.R.B. Dublin, pre-1916. Conditions, it any, Stipulated by Witness. Nil File No. S.63 Form B.S.M.2 STATEMENT OF DR. PATRICK McCARTAN, KARNAK. GREYSTONES, CO. WICKLOW. CONTENTS. Pages Personal details and schooldays 1 - 5 Departure for U.S.A. 5 Working for my living and sontinuing studies in U.S.A. 5 - 7 Return to Ireland in 1905 8 My initiation into the Hibernians and, later, the Clan-na-Gael in the U.S.A 8 Clan-na-Gael meeting addressed by Major McBride and Maud Gonne and other Clan-na-Gael activities 9 - 11 Launching of the "Gaelic American". 12 My transfer from the Clan-na-Gael to the I.R.E. in Dublin. Introduced to P.T. Daly by letter from John Devoy. 12 - 13 Some recollections of the Dublin I.R.B. Circle and its members 13 - 15 Fist Convention of Sinn Fein, 1905. 15 - 16 Incident concerning U.I.L. Convention 1905. 17 First steps towards founding of the Fianna by Countess Markievicz 1908. My election to the Dublin Corporation. 18 First publication of "Irish Freedom". 19 Emmet Commemoration Concert 20 - 21. Disciplinary action by I.R.B. Supreme Council. 21 - 22 The double issue of "Irish Freedom". 22 - 24 The introduction of P.H. Pearse to the I.R.B. 24 - 25 Allegations against P.T. Daly and my impressions of the man 25 - 27 My return to Tyrone as a medical practitioner in 1912 Organising in the north 27 - 29 Volunteer training camp at Tromague. 30 A car-load of rifles from Donabate - Deportation of Herbert Moore Pim 30 - 32 Difficulty about Roger Casement's credentials to the Clan-na-Gad in the U.S. 32 - 33 My trip to the U.S. to introduce Casement to the Clan-na-gael - Echo of the Howth 33 - 34 gun-running 2. CONTENTS Pages I bring gold for the I.R.B. from the Clan-na-Gael and money for St. Enda's from Joe McGarrity, on my return to Ireland 35 Document from Casement concerning the formation the Irish Brigade in Germany is presented to the Supreme Council 36 Last meeting of the Supreme Council before the Rising. The Military Committee. Definite date of the Rising is not fixed at that meeting of the Supreme Council 37 - 44 News of the intended Rising reaches me in Tyrone from Joe McGarrity in the U.S. during the week preceding Easter Week. 44 - 45 Discussion with Tom Clarke followed by the unsettling news of Casement's arrest. 46 - 47 Easter Week in Ulster 47 - 51 0n the run following the Rising 51 - 55 Arrested in February 1917 and deported to England. Escape of the deportees from England. North Longford election 60 - 61 Supreme Council of reconstituted I.R.B. decides to send an envoy to Russia. 61 My efforts to get to Russia end with my return from London to Ireland in company with the released prisoners 62-64 The preparation of the appeal to President Wilson by the released republican prisoners 65 - 66 My return to U.S.A. carrying the signed appeal. 66 - 68 Liam Mellows and I arrange to go to Germany - I am arrested on the ship at Halifax. 69 - 70 APPENDICES. Appendix A. Copy of Dr. McCartan's official report on his mission to Russia as envoy of the Republic of Ireland, 1921 42 pages Appendix B. Copy of MSS. draft of letter addressed by Dr. McCartan to John Devoy dated 19th April 1919. 11 pages Statement of Dr. Patrick McCartan, Karnak Greystones, Co. Wicklow. I was born on the 13th March, 1878. The official Birth Certificate gives the date as the 15th May, 1878. My father was a farmer, not a big farmer but I suppose average for Tyrone. I attended Tanderagee National School. and later went to a Latin teacher - he called it Trumague Academy - in theparish of Termonmagurk, or Carrickmore. I was there for two years, which was largely a waste of time. later I went to St. Patrick's College, Armagh, and spent two years there - Junior and Middle Grades. There was a bit of a. story about why I left but it is not very important. Then I went to St. Macartan's Seminary, Monaghan, and spent a year there - Senior Grade. I did not do much studying there. It was the centenary of the Rebellion of 1798 and some papers were smuggled. in, by the day-boys it suppose. I happened to pick up one of these and read. some of the speeches about '98. It was one of the daily papers. Then there was a History of Ireland in the room where the Middle and Senior Grades studied. I began to read about '98 in this History. I did not know enough about history then to look who was the author of it. It consisted of a number of volumes and was very detailed. I got much more interested then in '98. There was quite a nice little spirit amongst the boys in St. Macartan's Seminary. We sang Irish songs, or, if you like, Anglo-Irish songs, but they were all Irish. we had an organist from the 2. Cathedral, an Englishman, who was teaching us singing, and I remember one of the boys protesting. Re was teaching us the "Men. of Harlech" and other English songs. This boy protested that we were Irish and that we should sing Irish songs; we wanted Irish songs, not foreign songs. It was the first indication of real nationalism that I saw anywhere. There was nothing like that in St. Patrick's College, Armagh. I wouldn't say any of the teachers there were specially nationally-minded. the President was the late Dr. Mulhern, Bishop of Dromore. Another was Father AcKeown, later Dean of Clogher Diocese and P.P. of Carrickmacross and St. Patrick's Island, Lough Derg. I would not say the professors were very nationally conscious or, at any rate, they did not let the students see any indication of such, but the students themselves were instinctively national. I remember that the Spanish-American War was on at the time and one of the boys1 named Charlie McSherry - ha and I were great chums and we used to talk about '98 and the possibilities of freeing Ireland - had an uncle in the 69th Regiment going down to Cuba or somewhere like that to take part in the Spanish-American War. That brought us to discuss Fenianism and through him I learned, as he had leaned from his uncle, that Fenianism still existed in America. We in our boyish ways began to plan out how a revolution could be effected in Ireland. Our idea was that if police barracks all over the country were attacked simultaneously, the revolution would nearly be over. Even in those early days, we seemed to have had the right idea, as was borne out in much later years. 3. I still had a great admiration for the men of '98 and I bad, read a lot about them in the history I referred to. One incident brought one along to other incidents and periods of Irish history. During that holiday at home I was walking around the station in Omagh one day and I picked up a little book, I think it was paper covered, "The Life of Wolfe Tone" by Alice Milligan. That gave me a solid foundation for my future convictions re '98. Then I had a clear conception of what '98 meant. I suppose I lost that little book some time, or it disappeared somewhere, and I often thought I would have liked to read it again and see would, it have the same effect on me as it had then. That was the beginning. After that I went to St. Malachy's College, Belfast, and I was there for two years. I wouldn't say there was much nationalism there. I did not see any signs of nationalism amongst the students. There was one Professor Who started a Branch of the Gaelic League there, named O'Clery. He was not much good as a teacher, as a matter of fact, very bad, because he used do more talking than teaching during class hours. Then somehow I think he got the questions for the Intermediate and was able to make up for his loss of time during the year. There were a couple of so-called brilliant students there at that time. This was 1899. One was James Connolly. James Connolly used afterwards write. He was in the Civil Service in Dublin. He was very brilliant. It was some time after I came back to Dublin from the United States I met him again. He was supposed to be the best student - the Exhibitioner - in St. Malachy's College at that time. He used to write afterwards for 4. Griffith's 'United Irishman'. I remember seeing the names of Connolly and Maurice Joy on articles in the 'United Irishman'. It think he was a brother of Joe and Alec Connolly. Another was Denis Glasgow. He was supposed to be brilliant too. had a good voice. He sang very well. I don't know what happened him. Ii never heard of him anywhere afterwards. James Connolly was the only one who turned out well nationally amongst those who were not going on for the Church. Another one there - he was just avenge - was Bob Fullerton. He was afterwards Father Fullerton and wrote about socialism. He was good nationally after he became a priest, but he is dead since. He was curate in Belfast and he was very national. I never met afterwards, in connection with the national movement, any of the other students who were there except Tommy Laverty. He became a doctor and there was not much nationalism in his make-up. I think he was attached to some of the prisons hare during the Civil War or attached to the Army. As to the other students that were there during my time, I newer heard of them afterwards. I don't know what happened them. Some of them became priests, but I never heard of any of them figuring in the national movement. I spent two years in Belfast. When I went to St. Malachy's first, I had already done the Senior Grade and done it badly. I had been reading more Irish history in St. Macartan's than attending to my studies was not very good at Latin and Greek and all that kind of thing. I got an examination to see what class I would go into. Fr. Boyle was President then. He thought I was pretty hopeless but I told him that I was not as bad as I appeared and that if I went into the 5. Metric. Class I would do nothing. I asked. him to let me go into the Senior Grade and I would then do the Honours Metric. He agreed and I studied in Senior Grade and did the Honours Matric. The Honours Metric. consisted of the two old Senior Grade programmes, the past year and the current year. When the exam came, I got a pass on the honours papers. The next year I got First Arts. I got good marks in Latin and Greek. I forget what the other subjects where, but I got good marks all round in the First Arts. It was coming around to the autumn again, September. A brother of mine gave me some money to go to the bank at Sit-mile-cross. I started off to go to the bank. The lodgment consisted of cheques and a £20 note and a £5 note. I kept the notes and went off to Derry. I went into a bank there, changed the £20 note and sent home £10 of this, with a note to say that, I had sailed that day for America. Actually I had not sailed that day. It was a couple of days afterwards I did leave. I landed in New York with a 10 dollar gold piece, went from there to Philadelphia and cal1ed on Joe McGarritty's Brother's place. Joe McGarritty's brother and I bad been students together at St. Patrick's College, Armagh1 and. he went to America. later - about a year before that time. so I went to Philadelphia and stayed in John McGarritty's place for about three weeks before I got any job. I was getting downhearted. Then I got a Job attending bar, in a saloon, at 5 dollars a week with my board. I was able to save money at that too. My laundry cost me about 50 cents, and so I was able to save at least four dollars a week. I hadn't time to spend it, so I had to save it. 6. We worked about twelve hours a day, Sometimes more. I worked there, for a couple of months. Then I went to work for a man from my native parish who was in the same business, at 12 dollars a week without board. I worked for him for about six months or so. I forget exactly how long but it should have been about six months. Then the business got bad. There were three of us working for him and we were all from the same parish as himself. I was the last in, so I was laid off. The following Tuesday was election day and the saloons were closed. I was out of work on Monday, and on Wednesday I had work again. I think the pay was 5 or 6 dollars a week with board, but the hours were very short. I began at five in the morning, got off at nine, resumed at one and worked from one till six. I began to study then for a scholarship to the University of Pennsylvania. I got Greek books because I had been told by a friend of mine, who had been in St. Malachy's College also and5. who was then a medical student,, that it would be easy getting a scholarship with Greek as there were not many of them doing Greek there. I got Greek books and Latin books and began to study up again for a scholarship. I was about a month working there and just ready to start to study when my old boss - the man from my native parish - called on me and said he wanted me to come back as one of the men had. been laid off. I said I would not go back for the same money, so he increased the pay to 15 dollars a week. I went back and worked for him, until he left. He sold out the place and a German-American bought it. When the German-American 7. took over, he knew nothing about the saloon business and I was his chief man there. Joe McGarrity and I used to meet very often. He used to come in when we were closing at twelve or one o'clock. He would can in and we would go and have a cup of coffee together and a talk. Then we would walk down to Joe's as: very often the trams would at that time have ceased to run. We walked and talked and went on like that. Joe had a great habit of getting books that he could carry in his packet and read when he was on the trams. I got into the same habit although I had not much travelling to do, but on a Sunday I might have a long ride on the tram. We often discussed the books we read. One night Joe came in and said he was going to Temple College to take a course - a night course. I asked him what courses were taught in Temple College, what one could study there. We discussed the subjects that one could learn by going to Temple College at night and I found that medicine was one of them. So I went and registered as a medical student in Temple College. Then I went to see my old friend from St. Malachy's College, who was now a doctor, and he said that, if I was going to study medicine I should go to the University; that Temple College was only a place for missionaries and one really did not get a good course in medicine there. I made up my mind that I would go to the University of Pennsylvania and I had all the certificates that my friend had When he went there as a medical student. I was eligible for registration there. However, in another conversation with him, he asked me where I intended to practise when I would 8. be q1ualified, and I said in Ireland. He said, "Then you had better study in Ireland". Joe McGarrity and I talked this over. I told McGarrity that If had not enough money to go to Ireland and Joe said, "Go ahead. You go to Ireland and when your money runs out, write to me and the money will be alright". I never got any money while a medical student in addition to my own except from Joe McGarrity. I was able to pay him back later. However, that is another story. Thus I returned to Ireland in 1905. I had gone to America in September, 1900, and I think it was in the autumn of 1901 that Joe McGarrity's brother talked to me about the Clan na. Gael. I had joined. the Hibernians, thinking it was the Fenian organisation. I was initiated and all that. It was a benevolent organisation alright, but the name of Ireland. was never mentioned for the whole meeting and I felt I was in the wrong shop. If saw that it had no connection with Fenianism. Then Joe McGarrity's brother told me about the Clan na Gael. I asked him a lot of questions about it, as to whether this was the Fenian organisation, and he said it was, After my seminary schooling in Ireland, I suppose I asked him if there was anything against joining it from the Catholic standpoint. So he assured me there was not, that there were priests in it. He proposed me and I got initiated, in Camp 428. I was about a year and a half a member of it when I became Junior Guardian of camp 428, and I was Senior Guardian for about two or three years before I came back to Ireland. Joe McGarrity belonged to that Camp and his brother, who is now Fr. McGarrity and is still alive. We bad a very good Camp, nearly 9. one of the best in Philadelphia. We were always active, raising money and that kind of thing. I remember one night there was a meeting advertised. I don't know how I wandered down Spruce Street - I was living on Spruce Street - and whether I saw the ads, in the paper or whether I did not, I could not say, but I went down anyway to 726 Spruce Street which was the Irish-American Club, the headquarters of the Clan na Gael. I think this was before I had joined the Clan. The door was open. I saw people walking in and 31 walked in also. When somebody asked me had I a ticket for the meeting and I said I had not, he offered me a ticket and I bought it. It was a meeting addressed by Major McBride and Maud Gonne. That meeting made me enthusiastic. Of course, I knew of Major McBride before, that is, I knew all about him because we were all enthusiastically pro-Boer during the Boer War and we had heard an about his exploits in South Africa. He spoke there that night as well as Maud Gonne, but I did not meet him after the meeting, though it did meet Maud Gonne and spoke to her that night. She came back to the Irish-American Club. A lot of us went around and shook hands with her. She was sitting on a couch. She was a very beautiful girl at the time. Major McBride did tot come back to the Irish-American Club or, if he did, I did not see him around. He may have been closeted with some of the elite but, at any rate, I did not see him. That was my first meeting with Maud Gonne. The meeting at which Major McBride and Maud Gonne spoke was in the Academy of Music. I think maybe it was discussing that meeting with Joe McGarrity, enthusing about what was said, that really brought me into the Clan na Gael. 10. I believe it was. I think that was about 1901 - about the autumn of that year. We were very active always. There was always plenty of work to do in the Clan na Gael - always plenty of national work. They always celebrated the Manchester Martyrs anniversary and Robert Emmet's birthday about the 14th March. The Manchester Martyrs meetings were always around the middle of November. There were always good lectures. There were always outstanding speakers. I remember giving tickets. for one of these anniversaries to the man who introduced me to the Hibernians in the belief that they were the successors to the Fenians. Judge O'Neill Ryan of St. Louis was the speaker. I bad beard him speak before at ordinary Camp meetings of the Clan na. Gael. I gave this man ticket to go to the meeting to hear Judge O'Neill Ryan. I forget whether it was on Robert Emmet or the Manchester Martyrs that the Judge was speaking. At any rate, this man came back to me, full of enthusiasm, and asked me to propose him for membership of the Clan na Gael. Thereafter he was an active member and a good subscriber of the Clan na Gael until he died. Those were the chief activities. They had an outing every 4th of July at which they raised some money or something like that. I don't know much about these functions as I was never on one, being always working when they were on. The activities of the Clan were mostly that kind of work. The Irish American Club was the Headquarters. in Philadelphia. There one met many of the members on Sunday mornings 11. and evenings. On alternate weeks I was off work at six o'clock in the evening and I used wander down to the club after having something to eat. There I usually met William Crossan, the District Officer of the Clan na Gael. H was an old ish man, or at least I thought him old at the time. He might have been around the 60's. I became very attached to Bill Crossan. He used to tell me all about the Fenians and kindred subjects. He had joined the Fenians himself when be was a very young man. He went to Confession and he was asked in Confession was he a Fenian. He said he was and he was refused absolution. That left him away from Confession for about a year until, at the time he was coming to America., he thought he would make another attempt to go to Confession, Then he told how long it was since his last Confession, the priest turned to him and asked1 "Why were you so long from Confession? He said he was refused absolution. The priest asked why, and he said because he was a member of the Fenians. "Oh! Thank God", said the priest, "I was educated, in Salamanca. Go on, my child". Bill Crossan was a great character and a great personality. He had a carrying business, a truck business - horses it was at that time - and he was highly respected by everybody. He had an extraordinary memory. The history of the world was all fresh in his mind, and about any outstanding character in world history, he could give you all the details without hesitation. There was a small library in the Irish- American Club and there were some books in it that I was anxious to get. No one was allowed to take them out and I had no time to read them by going there. I asked Crossan one day would he give me Gavan Daffy's "Young 12. Ireland", and he gave it to me to take it home with me. That gave me a good idea of the '48 movement. The Gaelic American was started by the clan na Gael, with John Devoy as editor. We all purchased some of the shares issued for it, and shortly after its publication I remember writing to Devoy and asking him for a list of books on 1798, 1848 and 1867. I was ashamed of my ignorance and did not sign my name to the letter, so I did not get the list of books. When I was going to Dublin, Joe McGarrity left me to New York. We called at the 'Gaelic-American' office and there I met for the first time Tom Clarke. He was Manager of the 'Gaelic-American' and John Devoy was Editor. John Devoy gave me a transfer from the Clan na Gael in America to the I.R.B. in Ireland and a letter to P.T. Daly. Daly was; then Manager of Cl— Cumainn. I delivered the letter, after coming to Dublin, to P.T. Daly, Who was very prominent in national affairs. His voice seemed a voice in the wilderness. We used to read his speeches in the 'Gaelic-American'. He was a member of the Dublin Corporation and used his membership of the corporation as a platform for Irish national propaganda. I don't think P.T. Daly's work has ever been properly appreciated. He was an outstanding character and, to my mind, a great man. He may have had his faults but they were small compared to the great work he did. He got into disrepute over very little but certainly he was outstanding at the time and always national. He was in the Labour movement and used the Labour movement for national propaganda. also. I had 13. a great admiration for Daly. Outside Arthur Griffith, ha was the outstanding national figure of that time. As far as public life was concerned, Daly was outstanding as a Nationalist. In every public speech he made, he always brought in an advocacy of the national cause to it. He was a member of the Executive of the I.R.B. In his public life, as a member of the Corporation, he did everything he could to further the objects and interests of the I.R.B. When I gave John Devoy's letter to P.T. Daly in Cl— Cumainn, he sent for somebody - who happened to be Se‡n T O'Kelly - and he told Se‡n T. O'Kelly to take me into his Circle of the I.R.B. I think Se‡n T. was a Section Leader. The Circles were made up of a number of men, who were divided into Sections, Section Leaders being appointed to each Section. In this Circle I think rwas in Se‡n T. O'Kelly's Section. The Section Leader was the man responsible for notifying the members of his Section of any special meetings or if there Was anything to be done or anything other than the usual monthly meetings. It was a very fine Circle. I don It know how many Circles were in Dublin at the time, but in this Circle they were all very fine types. Judge O'Byrne and Ernest Blythe were members. There was a chap named Sloane, another Protestant. I don't know what happened him. I think he was from the North of Ireland originally. There were Thomas Shine Cuffe, Se‡n T. O'Kelly and the Ingoldsbys - two brothers, Pat and Louis - and they were grand types too. Michael Cowley was Centre. Michael was very earnest and very good. There was always a very good attendance. The 14. attendance was always nearly, it would say, up to ninety per cent, at all the meetings. This was 1905. After some time - apparently when the Circle reached 100 it was divided - this Circle. reached the 100 mark and it was divided. into two Circles. The Clarence Mangan Literary Society was the name given to the new Circle which split off from our Circle. I had been there for some time. I forget what the name of the original Circle Was. All these Circles went by some such names as a cover for their meetings. Michael Cowley may know the original name of this Circle. I was a medical student then. There were not many students in the I.R.B. at this time. There was Dan Sheehan who was a Final medical, and Dick Hayes I was told by someone was a member but I had not met Dick at that time. I think he was a Final medical and had just got qualified, but I knew him just to hear about him. Another member was John Ellwood who was very talkative but, I think, very sincere, ten there was Paddy 0'Callaghan from the County Monaghan, now in the Argentine. His father was a teacher in Co. Monaghan. These were the four medical students in this Circle, and later Pad1raig Grogan became a member and as Dr. Grogan was down in Maynooth afterwards. After the Treaty he became. Medical Officer of Health for some county or other. I brought in Dr. Dundon of Borris, Co. Carlow, while a medical student. I proposed Dr. Gormley of Ballybofey, Co. Donegal, for membership of the I.R.B. He was born in Tyrone, not far from my native place. He had been in the D.M.P. before he became a medical student. He had worked in the office of the D.M.P. Headquarters, or something like 15. that. On that account, he would not be accepted for membership of the I.R.B. I also proposed Edmond O'Doherty who was a doctor later. I knew him in Philadelphia as a bar-tender like myself. Hiss father had been a Head Constable and he would not be taken into the I.R.B. because his father had been in the R.I.C. They were both good men, both reliable men, good nationally, and I am sure they would have made good members, but at that time there was a strict bar against anyone being taken in as members who bad any contact or connection whatever with the police or the British. administration. This was adopted originally as a precaution against the organisation becoming permeated by spies, as the '98 movement had been. After I had been here a couple of months, the first Convention of the Sinn FŽin took place in the Rotunda with Edward Martin in the chair. Griffith read his Sinn FŽin policy. There was not a big crowd there. That was in 1905 when Sinn FŽin was started first. Dr. Gogarty was in it, also Pat Hughes of Dundalk, Bulmer Hobson and, I think Dinny McCullough, but I forget now just who were there. Usually the people that one knew and who were active in the I.R.B. also came along to meetings like this. I remember I was appointed on the Executive of Sinn FŽin and on some Committee. I forget what Committee I was appointed on. The mole Executive was divided into Committees, each Committee dealing with some aspect or other of the life of the country. That meeting would be in November of 1905, perhaps later in the year. I know that the University started in October and it must have been November or December. 16. Dr Gogarty and I were on the same Committee and we attended the different meetings, but we really did nothing. We got nowhere with it. When there was no work being done, we stopped attending the meetings, or we were not called to meetings, or something like that. It drifted on. The trouble was, I believe, that Sinn FŽin had been launched into an active career before enough preliminary work had been done to ensure its success. The first impetus that Sinn fŽin got was in 19071 when Charlie Dolan resigned from the Parliamentary Party and contested the North Leitrim seat on a Sinn FŽin ticket. Of course, we all went up there to help with Dolan's election campaign. That was 1907. Dolan was defeated, of course, but the election campaign had served to bring the Sinn fŽin policy into the public eye. At that time also Sir Thomas Esmonde gave an indication that he was separating from the Irish Party, but he went back to it again. I remember writing to him for an interview for the 'Gae1ic-American'. I used to do an odd article for the 'Gaelic-American' and I wanted to give Esmonde's views in the form of an article. I remember one meeting I attended of the Independent Orangemen in the Rotunda. Lindsay Crawford spoke at that meeting and a clergyman named Boyle, but really it was a Fenian meeting. It was mostly I.R.B. men that made up the audience, because all the people that I knew were there. I remember that was the first thing I reported for the "Gaelic-American'. I reported the 17. speeches as far as I could remember them with the help of what was published in the daily papers. I also wrote an article giving my own impression of the meeting. This was published as an editorial in the 'Gaelic-American'. After that I was a fairly constant contributor. Amongst the students in the University, there was a good spirit on the whole but there were few of them that were sufficiently advanced to become members of the I.R.B., or that one would care to approach on this matter, and very few were very keen on the language amongst the medical students There were, of course, the Art students whom I did not know very well, but one did not meet them, somehow or other. One only met the medical students down in Cecelia Street, I did not meet the others. I can't remember anything very exciting or of importance in the national sphere then, but there is something I forgot to mention following the Convention of 1905. The 'United Irishman' had published a report of the Convention and of Griffith's speech there. After that there was to be a Convention of the United Irish League at the Mansion House. I went down to the office of the 'United Irishman' and got a lot of copies of the paper. I got some students to come along with me and we stood outside the Mansion House shouting to the delegates going in to the U.I.L. Convention to hear Joe Devlin speaking, "All about the Convention!. All about the Convention! All about the Convention!" The delegates all bought Copies of the paper under the impression that the Convention referred to was the U.I.L. Convention. We got some fun out of this more than anything else. The United Irish League, as an 18. organisation, was all-powerful in the country at this time, backing, as it did, the Parliamentary Party. Concerning the formation of the Fianna, I think I was at the first meeting or one of the first meetings. Madame Markeivicz took out four boys to a cottage she had in Dundrum. I think it was four and I Think Percy Reynolds was one of the four, if I am not mistaken. We used to go out there occasionally, Dr. Dundon and myself, to visit Countess Markeivicz. She had a small bore rifle and we did some practice shooting on a couple of occasions. I used to go out there very often on a Sunday Afternoon. p‡draig î Riain may have been one of the four boys, or it may have been afterwards he come in There was a chap named Walsh and another named Reynolds. Those are the two I can definitely remember. I think this; was about 1908. It was, at any rate, before there was any formal Fianna organisation launched. It was a kind of experiment she was carrying on, and there were only these four boys I mentioned involved at that time. in l908 I was home on holidays in Tyrone and I got a wire from P.T. Daly to come to Dublin. I came to Dublin immediately as I regarded any word from P.T. as an order. When I came to Dublin, I found I had been nominated as candidate for a Corporation seat in place of Daly who had been disqualified because he had moved his residence from one ward to another, or something like that. He put in my name, in case he would be disqualified So I got elected to the Rotunda Ward as a member of the corporation. Thus I was a member of the Corporation while I was still a medical student. It was great fun going around. Of course, the I.R.B. were all working 19. for me. Sean T. O'Kelly had stood for and was elected to an adjoining Ward. So we went around celebrating after the election was over. The paper, 'Irish Freedom' was started in 1910. Bulmer Hobson was always keen on a paper. He had started 'The Republic' in Belfast which lasted for a little time. People like Bob Lyndon, P.S. O'Hegarty, myself and. Dinny McCullough subscribed a shilling a week towards the expense of publication. However, the estimates were not always accurate and did not meet the cost of production. Later Bulmer came to Dublin and he was advocating the publication of an outspoken national paper. His idea of financing it was the stilling a week that members of the organisation would subscribe. Eventually Fred Allen, Se‡n O'Hanlon and Tom Clarke and some others, decided to start 'Irish Freedom' and I was appointed editor. I am sure Fred Allen thought that he would be the actual editor and that I would be just nominally editor, but he got his first surprise when he wrote an editorial for the first issue, which I published as an ordinary article and published a contribution by Hobson as the first editorial. That Was the first jolt Fred Allen got. I did not write much - practically nothing. I hadn"t time because I was working for my final, exam at the time, or rather I had got my exam that year but was Resident Surgeon in the Mater Hospital, It was from there I edited the paper but I had not much time for writing myself on account of my duties as Resident Surgeon. Anyway, there came in a good lot of material from P.S. O'Hegarty, Bulmer Hobson and Fred Allen. Allen wrote a good lot, mostly recollections. 20. I was used to the methods and procedure at the meetings in America. They always passed resolutions at the Emmet and Manchester Martyrs celebrations, dealing with some current national affairs in Ireland and proclaiming the adherence of the meeting to the ideal of a Republic and the belief in physical force methods to obtain it. I had these ideas in my mind when there was an Emmet commemoration meeting coming along at the Rotunda, and I thought that the same spirit would obtain here. It had been announced that the King of England was to visit Ireland that year. So I wrote an editorial for that issue - the issue or two before March - saying that there would be resolutions about the question of loyal addresses to the King, I assumed that there would be such resolutions passed. Meetings like this Rotunda meeting ware always held under the auspices of the Wolfe Tone Committee, of which Tom Clarke was a member, This was merely a cover name for the Executive of the I.R.B. Clarke discussed this editorial with me and told me that there would be no resolutions of the kind proposed or passed there. I asked him, "Why?" "Oh!", he said, "it would be regarded as politics". I said, "My God! You can't regard a thing like that as politics. This is a national matter". (By "politics" here was meant local party politics). However, that was the decision, and it was obvious from Tom's attitude that he did not agree with the decision but was willing to be bound by it. During the meeting I was sitting near Countess Markievicz. P‡draig Pearse was the orator. I remember the part of his speech that caught me was when be said Dublin would have to do some great act to atone for the 21. disgrace for not producing a man that would dash his head against a stone wall in an attempt to rescue Robert Emmet, I thought to myself, "Well, now! Here am I sitting and afraid to propose a resolution". I wrote out my resolution on a back of an envelope, protesting against loyal addresses to the King of England. Tom Clarke was sitting in the front seat with a man named Corbett from San Francisco. I went down to him. The St. James Band was playing a selection on the stage at this time. I read the resolution to Tom and he said, "Pat! I can't give you any advice. You know what the decision on this matter was". Countess Markievicz volunteered to second the resolution but I said to her. "Don't you do it unless. there is no one else to do it". I had told her what I was going to do, of course, Just as Tom said he could give me no advice, the band. was clearing off the state, baying finished its recital. I threw my leg aver the footlights, got up on the stage and proposed my resolution. Tom jumped up after me and seconded it, and the thing went with a whoop. The resolution was passed with enthusiasm. Then there was consternation among the I.R.B. Supreme Council. We were charged with lack of discipline afterwards. There was a meeting of our Circle and something about me, my lack of discipline, or something was mentioned. at the Circle meeting. I said, "It's very funny that I am being denounced for taking a stand against loyal addresses to the King of England, when a man who is; high in the organisation has mis-spent money belonging to the organisation and there is no word about that". It was to P.T. Daly I referred, 22. but that is another story. He was supposed to have mis-spent a couple of hundred pounds of I.R.B. funds which he held on behalf of the organisation. I learned afterwards There this money went and I will refer to this later in this story. At any rate, this raised a storm. I suppose I should have just listened and said nothing. Later I was summoned before the Supreme Council and questioned as to where I got the information about Daly having mis-spent this money. Ithink they were under the impression that it was Tom Clarke had given me the information. I was put on oath for this questioning. The first question I was asked was whether I had made this statement at the Circle meeting. I admitted that I had. Then I was asked Where did I get this information and I replied that I had learned this from Joe McGarrity. Then they heard this, the whole inquiry collapsed. They had no more to say to me because that was all. I have been asked if I knew. whether or not Tom Clarke was courtmartialled on account of this incident. I don't believe he was, for he would have told me later when I became a member of the Supreme Council. Besides Fred Allen and Se‡n O'Hanlon resigned almost immediately. There was another sequel to this, however. The following issue of 'Irish Freedom' was already in the hands of the printers. Paddy Mahon was printing it. Fred Allen took over the whole thing out of my hands. They had the money and all the management end in their own hands, so we could not do anything against them. Bulmer Hobson then wanted to start a new paper. I 23. refused to have anything to do with starting a new paper. I wanted to continue on with 'Irish Freedom'. We went to Devereux and North, and they took it on but, when they found they were being threatened with law from Allen and friends, they would not proceed with the printing of the paper unless we put up £100 and lodged it with their lawyer. None of us had that much money. I could advance about £20 but that was all the ready money available. Tom Clarke was treasurer for the Supreme council of the I.R.B., and that money was kept with his own account. We was afraid to use any of this money lest a call should be made on it at any time. We agreed after some discussion that he would draw £80 - part of which was I.R.B. money - and I went to the bank and drew my £20. On my return Tom said he could not go ahead as under present conditions the money might be demanded at any time. I had promised to cable Joe McGarrity for the money and I begged Tom to give me the £80 and if necessary I would go up to Tyrone next day and get it from my father. I offered to go ahead with the plans we had previously, agreed upon myself. His reply was: "Don't tan like that Pat, it hurts", and turning around, he lifted the keys, came out and locked the door after him. He went down to the bank and got the money which he banded over to me. We lodged the £100 with the solicitor. At the same time I cabled to Joe M.Garrity to send me £100. Joe cabled the money to me and I was able to restore Tom Clarke his money and this left him in a good position. This was the occasion of the double issue of Irish Freedom' because Allen and his party went ahead 21. with the issue already half printed and we, on the other hand, proceeded to get out our own issue, and of the two I think I am justified in saying that ours was the better production. Apparently there was some discussion on the matter, or on the whole business, at the subsequent Supreme Council meeting following which Allen and his I supporters resigned from it, and also severed their I connection with the paper. So from then on, there was no trouble In this respect. Regarding Pearse's introduction to they I.R.B., I remember speaking to Tom Clarke after the Emmet Commemoration concert. I asked him did he think that Pearse would come into the I.R.B. Tom told me that this matter had been discussed at some meeting of the Supreme Council and that It had been decided then that Pearse would be more useful outside than inside the organisation. Now, one may place any construction one pleases on this statement but the construction I placed on it is that those in authority on the Supreme Council at the time, that is, Fred. Allen, who really controlled the organisation then with the backing of Se‡n O'Hanlon and some others, did not want a man with as strong a personality as Pearse in the organisation because he would quickly overshadow them. amongst those who supported, Allen on the Supreme Council I mentioned Se‡n O'Hanlon. O'Hanlon was a good, straight, honest fellow, very well-intentioned, who had limited ability. Allen used. men like O'Hanlon to support him in keeping his personal control of the organisation, and I think it was Allen's fear of losing this personal control that animated him against bringing in men like Pearse. This was my own opinion, which may be wrong and may be 25. unjust to them, but I certainly formed that opinion. As far as I can remember, Pearse did not come into the I.R.B. until after Fred Allen, Se‡n O'Hanlon and some others had resigned froth the Supreme Council. He must have come into the organisation quite soon after that and I understand that it was Se‡n T. O'Kelly who brought him into the organisation. At any rate, he says so himself, that is, it was Se‡n T. who approached him on the abject and discussed it with him and got his agreement to join. I don't know who it was that my have sworn him in. This all happened in or about the time of the double issue of 'Irish Freedom'. There was some kind of a settlement between the two sections of the Supreme Council on this, because they turned over the paper to us without further demur and then Fred Allen and his people got out. From this point, Tom Clarke, Dinny McCullough and P.S. O'Hegarty were the chief men, the moving spirits, on the Supreme Council. P.T. Daly had already been removed, from the Supreme Council after the trouble about the money. I don't know who the other members of the Supreme Council were at this stage. Regarding P.T. Daly, I would like to say he had been accused of spending a couple of hundred pounds of I.R.B. funds that he could not account for satisfactorily. He claimed afterwards - and I believe his claim to be correct - that this money had been spent in connection with the municipal election when Se‡n T. O'Kelly and myself had been elected to the Corporation. I knew, in fact, that he was always spending money in connection 26. with these elections and suchlike, which he did in the best interests of the national cause, and the way I felt about it was that, even if he did mis-spend it on his private affairs, it would not repay P.T. Daly for all the work and all the service he had given to the organisation and given to the service of Ireland. It would have been very small compensation for the work he had done. I think it was quite unfair to discredit Daly because of this, as I understood, or I was led to believe then, that it was quite customary for the I.R.B. to spend money on matters such as elections in order to get their nominees placed in important positions where they were in a position to further the interests of the organisation. It was, therefore, very unfair to destroy his reputation on a charge like this because, until the advent of Tom Clarke, P.H. Pearse and the others, P.T. Daly was the outstanding man in the I.R.B. of the time, an outstanding nationalist who always worked consistently for the goal of a free Ireland. He was always national, even afterwards, that is, after his removal from the Supreme Council. I never met P.T. Daly from the time of the row over 'Irish Freedom' until I met him at Arthur Griffith's funeral in 1922. I had a warm shake-hands from him. I asked him how he was doing and he said, "My God, Pat! I'm doing what I never thought I would do. I have taken to drink!" I thought it was the moat pathetic statement I ever heard from a man, and from a man whom I always knew as an absolute teetotaller. I was very anxious when I was in America between l93O and 1939 that P.T. Daly should write his recollections because I felt he would be able to fill an 27. important gap in the history of the I.R.B. I wrote to him to get a stenographer and that I Would pay the stenographer's bill if he dictated his recollections. He note back and told me that he bad facilities for doing it and was doing it himself. Whether he ever did it or not, I don't know, or whether any of his children are alive that might have the manuscript, I don't know. I believe I wrote to P.S. O'Hegarty about this at the time, suggesting that he should get in touch with Daly to encourage him to write his memoirs, and I think O'Hegarty told me that Daly was doing it. To go back to the period of the double issue of 'Irish Freedom', I continued editing the paper for about a couple of months. That double issue was I think around December, 1911, and I think I was Resident Physician in Cork Street Hospital about that time. Bulmer Hobson then took over the editorship and he took it over completely some time early in 1912 when I left Dublin to take up a medical practice in Tyrone. When I had earned enough money in Tyrone, I came back to Dublin to study for a Fellowship in the College of Surgeons. The exam for that was in October, 1912, and I came back to Dublin perhaps a couple of months before that to study for it. While practising in Tyrone, any time I came to Dublin I always ca1le to Tom Clarke. Tom felt disappointed with me that I was not doing some organising in Tyrone. That was in 1912 and 1913. Tom thought I was inactive and often spoke to me about this, but really it was impossible to do any organising in Tyrone at that time. All the young lads were members of the Hibernians, which organisation was very strong, Up 28. there, and they regarded me as a black sheep. In fact, I learned that they bad been told by some of the higher- ups in the? Hibernians that I. was a paid agent from Dublin Castle. Actually, the amount of money I was supposed to have been paid was also quoted to them. It was supposed to have been £400 a year. They were able to accuse me openly of being a paid agent of Dublin castle and, tell me the salary I was supposed to be getting. It was only after the Volunteers were started and we had Eoin McNeill and Sir Roger Casement down to meetings in Carrickmore, Greencastle and Six-mile-cross that they began to realise that I was not a Dublin Castle agent after all. That, of course, was early 1914. In the meantime I had got an appointment to the Gortin Dispensary District in 1913 and this took up most of my time. As I said, Tom Clarke felt that I should be doing more organising, but these was little I could do and I had not much time on my hands. After the Volunteers had. started, however, the young men who flocked into the Volunteers began to come to me and seek my advice and, once we had broken into the Hibernians, it was plain sailing after that. We had a very good Circle in Carrickmore which was my native parish. We had one in Six-mile-cross, another very good one. We had another in Greencastle, also very good. These ware all new ones that had been started, except the Carrickmore one in which we had a small nucleus of about five men before that. Then we discovered that, as a result of the Church ban on such secret organisations, some of the men might 29. feel squeamish and start asking questions in Confession. I arranged a meeting of all the recently joined members to assemble at my father's barn one night. I got Fr. O'Daly, who was then curate in Clogher, and Fr. Coyle, who was then in Fintona, to speak to them on the attitude of the Church to the I.R.B. I think one of these priests said in the course of his talk, "When you go to confession, you go to confess your sins, not your virtues". I had got in touch with Fr. O'Daly to give this talk because he had remarked to me in Omagh one day after some meeting there, "There is nothing left for us only a secret organisation". I said to him, "Well, come on down to the hotel and we will discuss it over a cup of tea". I said to him then, "Do you not know that there is such an organisation?" He said, "I do not. And if there is, you can propose me for membership in it". I told him that I would. I asked were there any other priests that would join and he said Fr. Coyle would. "Will you approach him and ask him?" - which he did and Fr. Coyle also consented. I told the two of them that it was an oath-bound organisation and that perhaps it would be unfair to them if they were asked by their Bishop did they ever take an oath and they would have to admit that they did. I came to Dublin and asked Tom Clarke whether I could take them into the organisation without taking any oath. We took them into the I.R.B. without administering any oath, and that was how they came to speak to the young men in my father's barn. The Volunteers who joined up on the formation of the Companies were very good, but we had to depend very largely upon the Volunteers who were also members 30. of the I.R.B. When the split in the Volunteers came, that is, the Redmond split, practically the only people who remained with us and did not follow. Redmond were the I.R.B. men and of these we had about 5OO in the Co. Tyrone. We had a training camp about that time at Carrickmore at which J.J. O'Connell was the Training Officer. He was the late Colonel O'Connell. The camp, which was in the townland of Tromague, was in the field of a man named O'Neill. I distributed some thirty rifles that I had brought from Donabate, Co. Dublin. When I was coming with them in an old Ford car, I met the District Inspector and a number of police. These rifles were-part of a consignment that I had got through Tom Clarke. When I went out to this man, McAflister, in Donabate to collect them, he denied all knowledge of rifles until I mentioned Tom Ashe, whom I knew, and it was not until he had brought me to Tom Ashe and got him out of his bed to vouch for my credentials that I would get the rifles. I took the rifles to Tyrone, left them at a cousin's house and I drove on to my dispensary district. When I went to open the door of the garage to put in my car, the back axle of the car broke. It was a Ford car. If it had broken anywhere on the road with me, I would have been in a bad way with the rifles in it. I don't know. where these rifles came from. I remember that I paid for them out of my own pocket. They ware modern type rifles like Lee Enfields or something like that. I knew all about them at the time but I have forgotten now. All I remember is that there were about thirty rifles concerned, that McAllister bad them buried in his garden 31. and that I was sent to him by Tom Clarke to get them. To come back to the time when I met the police, I was taking these rifles to the camp to distribute them to the Volunteers there, a the Inspector and a number of police and a plain clothes man were returning and had stopped their car on the road, we thought they might try to capture the rifles. We farmed a guard of men with revolvers, as we had no ammunition there for the rifles, and I asked Herbert Pim to take command. I went up a little elevation to see whether the. police were coming in or whether they were passing on up the road and I saw that they were coming in with all the majesty of the law I came down again and three of us - my brother, myself and another boy - with revolvers told them to halt. They were not going to halt. My brother stepped out and said, "Another step and down you go!" There were four or five police there, one a. plain-clothes man named Murray. They halted then and we asked them what they wanted. They said they wanted to speak to Mr. Pim. Pim was away behind with a big long Peter-the- Painter in his hand. He came up to them and they read out from a document that, under the Aliens Restriction Act, he was ordered to leave the country within a certain number of days. I remember an incident later regarding this detective, Murray. I think he was from Belfast. When I was going to Liverpool on my way to Russia in 1917, which I did not reach then, I went into Peter Murphy's in Scotland Road Liverpool. There was a man standing at the counter talking to Mrs. Murphy when I went in. I went to another counter and pretended to 32. pick up some weekly papers. When he went out, I told Mrs. Murphy who I was and she said, "My Goodness! That man just left is a detective sent over recently from Ireland to keep an eye on the comings and goings of Irish People". It was only then I realised that he was Murray, the same man we ha held up at the camp at Carrickmore. I had not recognised him at the time nor had he recognised me. To come back to the matter of Pim's deportation order, Herbert Pim came up that night to Dublin, or next day - I forget. It was decided that they would not leave Ireland. Pim, Liam Mellows, Dinny McCullough and Blythe were involved. in this deportation order. They were the four that were ordered to leave the country under the Aliens Restriction Order. it was decided that they should disobey the order and remain, I think they were arrested subsequently and given a term of imprisonment for disobeying the order, or something like that. They were in Belfast Jail because I remember Pim afterwards talking about his experiences in prison. In l914 after the Redmond split, Casement had gone to America and the war had broken out a few days previously or a few1 days later. There were some meetings I attened but nothing that I can remember of much consequence. I had a letter from Joe McGarrity. He was confused.. He was Chairman of the Committee in America that was responsible for raising money for the Volunteers. He was confused about the whole issue in Ireland, about the split in the Volunteers, and wondering how they were and he wrote to me, or cabled - I forget which. He wrote I think. I sent the letter to Tom Clarke together with a copy of a cable I was sending in 33. reply to McGarrity's letter. I think I said, "Trust friend The Will arrive with you soon". This referred to Casement. Tom told. me that we could not give such credentials to Casement, that he had been responsible for handing over the Volunteers to John Redmond. I came up to Dublin then to talk this matter over with Torn Clarke. As a result of my talk with Tom Clarke, I volunteered to go to America myself at my own expense to clear up the situation to the people over there Se‡n McDermott got ma my ticket and an that was necessary to go. I paid my own way. I think I went third-class. At least, I came back third-class. I may have gone out second-class, but I know I came back third-class. I was back on the same boat with Torn Ashe who was second-class while I was third, and we arrived at Derry. I believe when Casement had gone to America he got some kind of a formal introduction to the Clan na Gael there but there was some kind of suspicion concerning him amongst the Clan na Gael. Then the Redmond split had confused the whole thing in their minds. That is why Joe McGarrity wrote to me to clear the matter up and I had volunteered to go the United States to explain in detail on the spot how things stood in Ireland and what the real feelings of the I.R.B. were in Ireland about these matters. When I arrived in the United States I went to Joe McGarrity's house in Philadelphia. I forget where it was I landed, but it was on a Sunday I think. Next day we came over to New York and met Devoy, and Casement also. 34. Of course, by this time Casement had established himself in the confidence of the Clan na Gael because the Howth gun-running had taken place in the meantime and Casement had told them all about this before it actually happened, the preparations for it and the arrangements; made, so that, when the news of the Howth gun-running reached America, they accepted the fact that he was largely, if not entirely, responsible for this event. Joe McGarrity told me afterwards that he and Casement had gone walking out that Sunday night of the Howth gun-running, expecting some news of it at any moment. He said they stood gazing anxiously eastwards as if, by the very intensity of their gaze, they could see over the distance what was happening in Ireland. It was a stupid but natural kind of thing to do. Consequently Casement was in high favour with the whole of them when I arrived and he needed no credentials from me or anyone else at that stage. The: Howth gun-running had set him up with the Clan na Gael. They believed - and I believe, that that was so - that Casement was chiefly responsible for the Howth gun-running. I understand that it was he made contact with Childers and arranged for the services of his yacht and it was he who was able to interest Mrs. Green in the project. Though the details in Ireland may have been dealt with by someone else, I believe it was Casement who made these arrangements. Casement was staying with Joe McGarrity at this time and he wrote and published several articles in the papers; there at the time, which were an very good. It was at this time that he published, the article, which was re-printed in pamphlet form afterwards, entitled 35. "Ireland, Germany And The Freedom of The Seas". I took home a copy of it with ma to Ireland later. Casement told me what he was going to do, that he was going to Germany, and I offered to go with him. He had a document written out about forming the Irish Brigade amongst British prisoners-of-war. I brought home two thousand pounds in gold - which was sent from the Clan na Gael to the I.R.B. in Ireland, and seven hundred. pounds in gold for Pearse's school, St. Enda's, from Joe McGarrity. The £700 was a personal contribution to Pearse for the running of his school. I believe I have Pearse's receipt for the £700 still, it I can lay my hands on this, I will hand it in to the Bureau as it may be of some historical interest. Tom Ashe had been in America at the same time on a mission of raising funds for the Gaelic league and we travelled home on the same ship, though he was second- class and I was third. When we arrived at Derry, where -S the ship docked, I arranged with Ashe that he would take the gold I carried and bring it ashore with him as, if it was observed by the Customs men or anybody like that, I would have difficulty in explaining what it was whereas Ashe could claim that it was money collected for the Gaelic League. Actually, there was no trouble about it. He declared what it was and it passed without comment. They were only too glad to see the gold coming into the country. I was asked no questions. I was travelling under my own name, but registered as a farmer, and I might have brought anything in with me for all the notice that was taken. Then Torn and I went on a late train from Deny to Beragh. We went to my 36. father's house and stopped that night. We came to Dublin the next day. I had this document from Casement about the formation of the Brigade in Germany and it was read out at a meeting of the Supreme Council of the I.R.B. When Casement gave me the copy of this document, I asked him did he want me to take it over to Ireland and he, knowing the danger of carrying such a document, said neither yes nor no. I don't think that in this he was asking for sanction for the proposal, but merely informing us and the I.R.B. Supreme Council that he was proposing to go ahead with this project. As he did not tell me not to take it, I took the document with me to Ireland and it was, as I said, read out to the Supreme Council. Documents of this nature were not a usual thing in I.R.B. transactions. They were too dangerous. When I brought the document home, I gave it to Tom Clarke and it was he read it to a. meeting of the Supreme Council. After having read it, he said to them, "Now you have all heard this and you understand what is in it, so we will destroy it" - and. he put a match to it on the spot. I had made no copy of it and there was now nothing of this historic document except the memory of it. The reaction of the meeting at the Supreme Council to this proposition was that they had approved of his going to Germany and, if he thought he could do some good in this project, well, let him fire away and perhaps some good might come out of it at any rate, he was doing this on his own and they could not stop him anyhow; it would be good if it worked out and, if it did not work, there would be no harm done. 37. I don't think there was anything of importance to note. then. We had various meetings of the Supreme Council of the I.R.B. but there was nothing that I can remember of note until the last meeting of the Supreme Council before the Rising. This was held in the Town Hall, Clontarf, and was, I think, about February, 1916. it may possibly have been January, but my recollection is that it was February. I had been co-opted as a member of the Supreme Council some time late in 1914. There has bean a lot of talk since that the actual date for the Rising was fixed at that meeting, but that is not my recollection of what took place there. The matter of a rising was discussed as it had been discussed at other meetings and Easter was vaguely mentioned. I remember at this meeting the situation must have been pretty tense because Tom Clarke said, "If we are raided, what do we do? Do we resist?", and it was agreed that we should resist arrest. Everyone produced his revolver to show that he was ready for such an event, except P.H. Pearse who rather shamefacedly admitted that he had forgotten his revolver morning. it was also decided that after that meeting each member of the Supreme Council would resist arrest if any attempt was made to arrest him. It was assumed, I think, that the Government knew more about the I.R.B. than they actually did know. That was the situation when the meeting began. Mick McGinn, who was originally from Omagh, was 38. then caretaker of the Clontarf Town Hall. He used to be I a. baker when he lived in Omagh. He was a baker for Dan Hackett who had a grocery store there. The local priest in Omagh preached one Sunday against the Fenians. After that, Dan Hackett asked McGinn was he at Mass that day, and be said he was, at first Mass. He asked, "Did you hear what the priest said?" Mick said he did. Then Dan asked him, "Did you know what it was all about?" Mick said, "No", he did not know. "well", he said, "you are the only man in Omagh who did not know what it was about" Then he said to him, "You had better clear out. I don't want you any more". The priest had almost pointed to McGinn during his sermon. Mick could not get any other job there, and so he came to Dublin. He was then caretaker of the Clontarf Town Hall. I don't know what period that was, but he told me himself about his work with Dan Hackett. He had a little farm also near Omagh and Dan Hackett wanted to be good enough to buy this farm from him, but Mick wouldn't sell - at least, not at Dan's price. Dan Hackett was the father of Professor Hackett here at the University and of Mrs. McKean who was prominent here for some time in public affairs. Amongst those present at that last meeting of the Supreme Council were Dinny McCullough, Se‡n McDermott, Tom Clarke, Patrick Pearse, myself. The representative of Leinster was absent. I think his name was Se‡n Tobin. He used work in some garage - Thompson's. The rest *ere all present, as far as I remember, though r forget some of their names Joe Gleeson from Liverpool was one of them. The